Grey Bard ([info]grey_bard) wrote,
@ 2008-07-19 02:28:00
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Horrible thoughts

Okay, shallow review thoughts first, it didn't strike me as a masterwork, but it worked for me. Dr. Horrible (the character) was perfectly sung and acted, every second of the thing. Penny could have used a little more variety - both of her solo songs sounded a bit too much alike to me, but she was good in the part. I must say that I would have preferred less of a downer for the ending, but this is Joss. How do we always forget we're dealing with Joss? Somehow, despite all of us knowing his tricks, he remains the king of the bait and switch.

Some people are saying Penny is a Woman In A Refrigerator - and I admit, I thought about it. She is, definitely, a Saintly Dead Love Interest.

I completely get and respect that interpretation. The thing that makes me feel as if she isn't, quite, is that usually in the most egregious Woman In Refrigerators cases the woman's death, while theoretically bad for the man, is, in a way, good for him in the long run. He thumps his chest, vows vengeance, etc, but really her death is the spur that leads him to having a fabulous adventurous lifestyle.

Often, to add insult to injury, there's a what if / time travel type story, in which he is shown that she shouldn't be rescued, because it led to him becoming a hero, so really, everyone is better off with her dead. Yeah. I can't stand it either. And that's if - if! Anyone remembers she ever existed, several stories later.

Whereas with Dr. Horrible... He was already getting what he wanted. He was already winning. He had just committed the deed that got him into the Evil League of Evil. Losing her only destroyed him, not built him up. He turns from gleeful villainy, to a man whose life is ashes in his mouth. Her death does *not* improve his life.

If you're going to kill a love interest, that's a more respectful way to do it.

That said, Joss Whedon kills a hell of a lot of women on his television shows. I mean, more women die than men, by a long shot - not that female characters should never die, but when the numbers are so imbalanced... you wonder.

On Buffy, in particular, it seems as if the only primary or secondary non-villain characters to die were, well. Women. People made the argument that of course people die around vampires, there's nothing skeevy about it, but I can't think of a male non-villain character who got screen time and characterization who died. Not one.

Women? DEATH COUNT! Tara, Buffy (Well, for a while), Joyce, Anya (though she does have an evil past, but her death had nothing to do with it, so YMMV) - and, at a pinch, Kendra and more potential slayers than you can shake a stick at.

Men? Um. Does Jonathan count? Because he was an ex-villain and fugitive from justice at that point and killed by his fellow ex-villain who relapsed. Does Ben count? He didn't have that much screentime and he knew his body was hosting a Hell God. 

I didn't watch Angel, but I hear things were pretty much the same on there as well.

Firefly and Serenity - at least what we saw of it, seemed to reverse that trend, so there's hope, but... Joss means well, but his track record isn't the greatest. 



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[info]mosellegreen
2008-07-19 07:03 am UTC (link)
Hm. Two thoughts.

First, my interpretation of Penny was different from any of those. I saw her as a standard pretty and reasonably nice but otherwise unexceptional girl, the sort who exist in droves in real life, and upon whom romantics are forever projecting their ideal. The Phantom could have fallen for any pretty girl in the Paris Opera who wasn't a stone bitch; Christine just happened to be the one to catch his eye. So I can't see Penny as the saintly dead love interest, but as an entirely different sort of stock character. (In one of Roberston Davies' novels, he had a Jungian analyst refer to such girls as "sybils". I'm dubious about the derivation, but I use the term in my head because I don't have an alternative.)

However, this interpretation may be more about my personality than about what Joss actually intended. I was told off good and proper for saying the same thing about Christine a few years back.

Second, I'm not arguing about the female death count, but I find it interesting, since a few years ago I read a handful of fannish essays arguing that the Buffy series was actually misandrist. Men were always depicted as evil or at least misguided when they tried to act on their own and had to be tamed back to acting in support of the female cast. And female characters got a pass on all kinds of bad deeds while male characters were punished and condemned for much smaller misdeeds. If you really care, I'll see if I still have the links to those.

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[info]grey_bard
2008-07-19 07:10 am UTC (link)
No, no, I know about that. And I'm not saying that that's not a thing too.

But one doesn't contradict the other, if that makes sense. They're different phenomena.

Women aren't called to account for their actions, they just drop dead as innocent victims to advance the drama.

(And I don't think she really *was* saintly, just an ordinary nice person being projected upon, but what was being projected upon her was Saintly Love Interest.)

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[info]grey_bard
2008-07-19 07:28 am UTC (link)
Also re the misandrist thing...

I think the show is, in certain ways, such as the "all fathers are evil" thing. I'm not so sure about the consequences/no consequences bit, though.

I wonder if it was really misandrist in that particular way, or if it was part of a larger phenomena - people getting called mercilessly on minor things that are highly debatable, but allowed to slide on the enormous giant "You're going to hell" things.

Like the Willow thing, or, for that matter, Andrew!
What the hell, Andrew? The crimes he committed were, at least partly human and normal. (Albeit human with a jet-pack.) So is he. There is no reason he shouldn't have been given to the police.None.

I mean, I know they broke him out to save him from Willow, but afterwards.

Meanwhile, people are having enormous fights and interventions over such crimes as sleeping with dubious people, fighting evil the wrong way, being bossy and so on.

Personal theory: They wanted to tell the stories they wanted to tell, and if it wasn't convenient to write a character out, even if it would have been morally and dramatically effective, they didn't.

Whereas hoorah for cheap drama.

I think you can probably tell that I disapprove.

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